Can we get a POC forum up in here? http://www.diaperswappers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435723

Well, it was bound to be brought up sooner or later. It’s just too bad that the wording and wishes of the original poster brought in a flurry of “isn’t this racist?” and “this is segregation!” types of responses because she states she doesn’t want non POC people to respond to the posts. Way to go…

naivete 05-26-2008 05:04 PM

Can we get a POC forum up in here?

Many other boards have them, a group for women or people of color (or parents of children of color) to discuss the issues they go through that other people may not be able to relate to and really should not be able to chime in on since they have never and will never experience it?

Why oh why, was such a good idea tainted by such idiotic words. YES, it would be wonderful to have a place for POC and parents of POC to gather and talk about something that would ordinarily be buried rather than responded to, just because no POC were around to see the question/comment. However, that doesn’t mean a non POC shouldn’t be able to chime in, or wouldn’t want to get some advice from a group of POC.

Some think it’s cyber-segregation, but it’s really just a place for POC to ask questions about dealing with POC related issues, and yes, there can be special POC related issues. I was around MDC long enough to know that they exist, even if many people think everyone is the same.

Would it REALLY be that bad to have one that wasn’t exclusive to POC?

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Comments
  1. DSDM2 says:

    “Would it REALLY be that bad to have one that wasn’t exclusive to POC?”

    ITA with this!

  2. Frankenberry says:

    “Just Her Says: May 26, 2008 at 10:20 pm
    Can I just say, I love this blog? And I love the comments too. Makes for a much needed daily chuckle!

    I also figured you guys would get a kick out of this:

    http://bestparentever.com

    HA! That was funny. Maybe we should post this on DS.

  3. lysol says:

    This thread is going to be heated. I think maybe the point she was trying to make: it would be nice to have a place where POC can go and talk about issues that relate to POC. Issues that non-POC simply can’t understand because they don’t experience it first hand. Racism and issues that POC face on a daily basis is not the same as “that one time I was treated unfairly at the mall where a lot of POC go to shop.”
    A safe haven where issues like institutional racism, being denied some of the same privileges non-POC have, and other topics can be discussed. To add: freely discussed without the fear of non-POC jumping in crying, “you big meanie! look at me, you hurt my feelings!” and generally directing the attention to their own privileged/guilt-stricken selves.

    KWIM?

  4. Birdie says:

    I think on a forum where people were adults and were treated like adults and had adult conversations that didn’t result in name calling and finger pointing… No, not such a bad idea. On DS? No way. It would be a total nightmare.

  5. naivete says:

    You ever think the reason I want one where PWOC can’t comment is the general attitude of many PWOC at the board? A girl posts about an experience with racism and she’s met with “Oh, are you sure you aren’t really just a bitch? Racism doesn’t exist any more!”

    It’d be nice to have a place to talk about something that is so inherent in many POC’s lives without having to constantly defend it or be attacked because of it. Yes I wrote that post when I was angry, and yes I worded it a little snarkily but the general idea has merit, as do the reasons behind it.

    Do people flood into the mental health forum and tell people their issues are all in their heads, and mental health issues or discrimination against those who have them, doesn’t exist any more just because they, who have never had to deal with it, have never seen it!

    No, they don’t, but it happens in every single thread that even hints at the word race. You know what’s racist? Not letting POC even have a slight voice in their own experiences.

    And I never meant it would have to be a locked forum, but at least PWOC would generally probably not go to that forum unless they were 1. allies, 2. interested in learning or 3. POC or parents of POC. And that would make for open discussion and a good supportive environment, which currently POC do not have. It’s funny how crunchy folks are a-ok with exploiting other cultures with their blessingway having kanjitattooed dreadlocked selves, but not open to respecting the people of those culture and their experiences when they have something they need to talk about, or heaven forbid ever get angry at the things they gotta go through.

    Peace.

  6. Sheila says:

    I guess I don’t see why having a racially segregated forum would in any part be a good idea. What if white people wanted a white’s only forum? Why is this any different? Are we trying to take a step back in time or what?

  7. naivete:

    I GET what you’re saying, I just DON’T agree with excluding in the name of a sacred place for POC. It’s not hard to start a forum, and if you really want a place JUST for POC, that’s what you’d have to do. Otherwise, you’d have a subforum at DS where ALL would still be allowed to participate, and to ask for non POC NOT to comment at ALL is just silly.

    Even if someone thinks a POC that feels they were being harassed is overreacting, they have the right to comment whatever they want. You have the right to hand them their ass on a platter if you want, and I’d recommend you do it.

  8. Sheila says:

    I’m annoyed with myself for putting an inappropriate apostrophe in my last post, I apologize for that.

  9. sara says:

    I don’t really have any thing to add. I do have a question what is PWOC.
    Thanks

  10. Sheila says:

    People with out color. Apparently Caucasians are transparent.

  11. sara says:

    really neato I’m transparent that is so cool. 😛

  12. Birdie says:

    i think i’m mostly transparent. i don’t think i would be invited in the super exclusive poc forum. bummer.

    naivete- i think you’d be better off to find a poc forum to discuss the challenges you face each day as a person of/with color. i don’t think you can really compare a poc forum with the mental heath forum. the mental health forum is not exclusive to the color of a person’s skin. mental heath effects people from all races.
    i guess i don’t get why you want something like that? excuse me if i am being insensitive, i am not trying to be, but poc have fought for many years to not be separated, but they do separate themselves in many ways by their own doing. so which do you want? to be included or excluded? you can’t have it both ways. and there are so many people out there now that have mixed heritages. how much “black” does a person have to have in their blood to be included in your poc forum? how much “mexican” do they have to have? it isn’t as simple as creating a place and slapping the poc label on there. you’re looking at is as a (no pun intended) black and white issue and it really isn’t.

  13. La-dee-da says:

    I agree with Sheila. IF whites asked for a white only forum they’d get crucified! This inequality has been going on a long time now. I am half latino and I see most times blacks being racist against whites; not the other way around. I’ve seen blacks jump down whites throats just for simply looking in their direction. It’s sick and I get tired of seeing it happen while they scream they are the ones being discriminated upon. Why should their be a special forum for POC? What makes them so special? If they do a forum for POC, they damn well better do one for Latino, Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, White, and every other race out there.

  14. maree9304 says:

    Wow, birdie, I could not agree more! Well said!

  15. lysol says:

    “poc have fought for many years to not be separated, but they do separate themselves in many ways by their own doing. so which do you want? to be included or excluded?”

    So here’s an example. When you watch TV and flip through the channels and all you see are PWOC on nearly every channel and every TV show, that is the fault of whom? Oh, but wait! POC have special channels just for them, BET, the Spanish network, etc.
    Why do you think channels like BET and the Spanish network exist? Seriously. Think about it. If there were more TV shows and channels with POC in roles (not just the pizza delivery guy, or the plumber), there wouldn’t be a need for channels like BET.
    Another example, scholarships intended for POC only. You probably think that’s wrong too and “why aren’t there white only scholarships?” Because the majority of scholarships out there are awarded to white people. Is that fair? Is that POC doing it to themselves?

    “and there are so many people out there now that have mixed heritages. how much “black” does a person have to have in their blood to be included in your poc forum? how much “mexican” do they have to have?”

    If you want to get technical, everyone on this planet has mixed heritage. But to point back to what naivete said: “And I never meant it would have to be a locked forum, but at least PWOC would generally probably not go to that forum unless they were 1. allies, 2. interested in learning or 3. POC or parents of POC. And that would make for open discussion and a good supportive environment, which currently POC do not have.”

  16. subpariq says:

    I don’t see why people are so opposed to an open forum. One cannot deny that there are, undeniable, issues that POC and parents of POC face that are unique to these folks. If it is not a segregated forum and one that is open to all, I feel that everyone stands to benefit from open discussions. I consider myself to be a pretty sensitive person, yet I can’t even begin to understand the many issues that POC face everyday…institutionalized racism being one of them. Just look at some of our everyday language which is racist in origin: picnic, master/slave drives on computers, etc.
    As a Caucasians, we sit in a position of inherent privilege. To further deny POC a “safe place” to discuss the, unfathomable as a Caucasian, issues that they face everyday is to unwittingly perpetuate racism. It didn’t take 50 years for my ancestors to oppress, almost to the point of no return, certain races. I think it would be arrogant of me to assume that all that damage can be undone in 50 years. To me, the urge to deny something as simple as a forum to talk about the challenges that POC face demonstrates a big lack of understanding and appreciation for the plight of POC.
    Having a place to discuss these issues is not segregation if anyone can participate in the conversation. Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to read, learn, and grow as a person. As I said, I am a pretty sensitive person, but I am surprised, at least several times a year, to learn how racism has seeped into my life (like the use of words with racist origin) without me even knowing. And for the love of jesus people, if POC want to self-identify as “POC”, who the hell are you to belittle the self-identification that these people have chosen? And why do you need to take the term that they have chosen and take it as some sort of slight.

  17. subpariq says:

    #13 I think your attitude demonstrates a total lack of understanding of world history, american history, and the affects that long term oppression have on a people. Further, it is incredibly arrogant to assume that the experiences that are unique to you are the same everywhere. If you, for a single second, think that Caucasians face even a tiny fraction of the racism that POC face, then you have so much learning and living to do. What makes African Americans “special” is the fact that they were systematically oppressed for hundreds and hundreds of years and that they have, almost miraculously, made incredible strides towards recovery in a mere 50 years. But although you can’t seem to see it, there is still a long way to go to undo what has been done-to the extent that this is even possible.
    Anyone can self identify as POC. If Caucasians want a forum to discuss the issues unique to them, I say go for it. Although, I really have to wonder what would be discussed. As a Caucasian, have I ever gotten a funny look from a POC? Sure. Maybe it is because my shoes are ugly or maybe it is because along with hundreds of years of oppression, rape and murder at the hands of my ancestors comes a little bit of inherent mistrust. Understandable, no? And to deny that racism exists towards POC today, well, you may as well deny the nose on your face.

  18. liljoeysmom says:

    I am not being snarky but is a cloth diapering website truly the right place for this type of forum? Considering DS is heavily moderated, threads get deleted left and right, and people are banned for insensitive remarks. I could see how one heated thread could get alot of people banned.

    What about the other groups? Shouldn’t they have their forums? Native Americans? Muslims? Gays and lesbians? LDS? They all face discrimination on a daily basis.

    The reason why there aren’t more POC or any other race shows out there is because there is no audience for them. You better believe if the ratings were there the networks would have more of these shows on TV.

  19. Ashley says:

    I think it’s a bad idea. It’s segregation, plain and simple. Saying “I don’t want white people commenting or chiming in because they have no experience being discriminated against” makes it so. I don’t like the OP anyway, she’s very rude and abrasive, so I’m not surprised her post was written that way. Honestly, do you think all us white people sit around all day thinking of ways to piss off people of other races? Hardly.

    And just because we have no color (as a PWOC, I must wonder what I look like to others) does not mean we do not experience discrimination in our daily lives. Discrimination happens all over. I have a friend that lives in a predominantly black area of the country and she is constantly treated like shit because she is white. It is that way where I live as well, because we have a very large population of African immigrants who feel entitled to the American way. And you know what? They get more assistance and help then people that were born here. That’s discrimination. It’s wrong.

    It’s wrong IRL and it’s wrong online. If you want to stop the cycle of discrimination, don’t say you want your own little closed discussion forum on a cloth diaper board that caters to women and families around the world. Try to have some intelligent discussion (which might be hard to do considering, well, it is DS) and conversation with people, and stop blaming me for what my ancestors may have done.

  20. BOOCHME says:

    I can’t help but agree with the others who have posted. If you want a POC forum make one, or join one. I have no issues with POC, I have no issues with PWOC. Racism is against the TOS so if you see a post where a poster is being bashed and it appears to be discriminatory or racist or prejudiced report it.

    I am a single mother, I am not asking for a single mother’s forum, but from my past I have been on the receiving end of discrimination big time! “That poor girl, her children are going to grow up without a ‘real’ male influence. Her boy will be a felon and her girl will be a slut.”

    If you want to vent about something that relates to POC put it in off topic discussions and when someone opens their pie hole shut it for them, Lord knows I do when it comes to my situation.

    I am not asking for special treatment neither should anyone else.

    All this PC crap really pisses me off. WE ARE ALL FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS and though I am sensitive to their history and the discrimination some POC face, once, just once I would like to see people stand up, think logically, and when someone makes a remark that you think is discriminating, see if they are trying to be sensitive. If they are, and it’s truly obvious, which I have seen over and over again on DS, smile because someone thought of you and though they didn’t do it right, they still made the effort!

    Let’s be honest here a good majority of racists won’t wear their white gowns grocery shopping or purposely piss off a site they enjoy posting on.

    And I just can’t help but think that if a PWOC posted on a POC thread then maybe the POC can look at it as an opportunity to education? Maybe the PWOC doesn’t understand but wants to help, or is our help not welcome on your subforum? If the latter is the case, then you tell me, who is the real racist?

  21. subpariq says:

    #19 is the Military Family subforum segregation “plain and simple?” I object to that because I feel segregated because we aren’t a military family. I also object to the formula feeding, thrifty families, pregnancy, TTC, and babywearing ones. None of them apply to me, or my life, therefore, I feel segregated.
    I think that the OP admitted that she worded that improperly and that what she meant was that she didn’t want people chiming in that would attempt to discredit people participating in the forum.
    Obviously, you haven’t bothered to consider that there are other issues and topics of discussion that are unique to POC-besides discrimination. Your thoughtlessness and lack of understanding of the fact that the mess our ancestors made by oppressing POC for hundreds of years is not immediately erased by 50 years of progress is sad. I find your disdainfulness about entitlement to be ironic.

  22. agraced says:

    I think a Mother should be able to post in DS about any issues she is having even if they do have something to do with race. I wouldn’t think she needs a special place to post them.

  23. naivete says:

    I’m only rude or abrasive to people who are offensive and ignorant. To everyone else, I’m sweet and candy, sugar pie. It’s funny though that it’s only the people who don’t understand who think I’m rude anyways, every time a racial post comes up I get 2-3 PMs from other POC who didn’t chime in on the thread thanking me for being so vocal because they couldn’t find the voice to do it in. I also get (albeit a bit more rare) PMs of PWOC who talk about what they learned and ask questions. And if a few people dislike me, but I reach a few people and help give them a voice or help them learn a few things, I’m perfectly fine with that. If people judge me solely on my ability to stand up for what I believe in, but then choose to ignore the many in depth posts I’ve put in other areas that are helpful, like the fact that I try to be as helpful and in depth as I can in the breastfeeding support arena, the fact that I’ve helped research things in other arenas for people, then that’s their own biz, that’s on you, not on me, because I know and my friends know the type of person I am, and it’s so far away from “rude and abrasive” that it’s kind of laughable. I just get passionate about things that affect me.

    And I know the mental health forum doesn’t exclude races, but it does exclude those who don’t face mental health issues by fact that people without will probably not hang out in there, and therefore gives people who do face it a place where they can discuss what they go through without people coming in and telling them they’re wrong.

    And yes, another board in general would be great, but I like DS and DS incorporates every other aspect of my life, from mental health issues, to diapering, to parenting, to breastfeeding, to babywearing, so why can’t it incorporate issues I face with racial discrimination or cultural appropriation? Obviously it’s not doing well to have it just out in the open because then it’s flooded with people who don’t understand and the voices of POC are completely drowned out by a bunch of PWOC ganging up and telling them they’re wrong.

    And would you call it sexist if on DS people decided maybe there needed to be a forum for women to discuss women related issues, if people were starting to get too uncomfortable with having men read it, or if men started jumping in on women issues and taking it over with their own thing and telling the women they were silly for feeling that way? The only thing it would do is provide a space for women where they don’t have to keep justifying what they’re saying to men. But the difference there is the men on the board know they don’t experience women things and they generally stay out or if they do jump in they are respectful of the issue and the poster, so that’s not an issue. But it is with racial threads.

    I’m not saying PWOC don’t face discrimination, but it’s not the same, PWOC can face racial discrimination on an individual basis but never on a systemic AND individual basis, where the system justifies it and amplifies it.

    And thumbs up to whoever’s commenting with right on statements here, it’s nice to see 🙂 One thing I do like about the racial threads is every time it happens, I get to meet a few more like minded people either through the fellow passionate-eers in the thread, or the people who PM me afterwards.

  24. naivete says:

    I think maybe the defensiveness comes from the fact that people think all we’d be doing is bashing PWOC, for some reason, as people tend to think that whenever a racial issue is brought up that some how it equates to pointing the finger, which it does not. You want an example of what I’d love to discuss in a POC forum? Racism in the media. Now tell me, what would you have to equate to that? Already you show me ignorance with the fact that you think exclusion is because there is no audience. You think we’re talking about shows that center around a culture? No, I’m talking mainstream. You’re saying there would be no more audience for say, House, if they put a native actor on the show? People would just. stop watching? No. You can see that by the fact that the very first native american actor to break through to mainstream TV without being a caricature of a native stereotype, Adam Beach, was put on CSI NY. Did ratings drop? No. But they don’t. The only way a native actor can get on TV is if they’re portraying a stereotype in buckskin and headdress and slurrin their words, and what does that do to the self worth and self love of native children who grow up with this?

    Or what about Peter Pan? This one draws a lot of negative reactions because it’s such a classic, and everyone loves it, but I don’t let my son watch it. Why? Because we’re native, and I don’t want him to see a mockery of his people put on TV with ‘bad guy indians’ jumping around hootin and hollerin and calling each other squaw (which by the way, is our equivalent to the N word) and singing ‘what makes the red man red’. And you know what? Even though I told his daycare specifically that I did not want him watching that, one of the teachers showed it anyways, and Trey came home and told me and then when I asked him what he thought about it, he asked specifically “that indians are mean”. And it spawned 2 weeks of undoing that by showing him, “Look at your uncle, does he do that? Does he act like that? No. We’re not bad people, they were bad for showing us like that.” Racism is so pervasive and yet no one who does not deal with it even knows how pervasive it is. I bet most people let their kids watch Peter Pan without a second thought as to that portrayal or how it could affect the self esteem of a native child. I need to constantly undo things like that so that he has pride in who he is, and doesn’t fall into believing the stereotypes. And I bet most people on DS in the main boards, either wouldn’t think it was that big a deal that their kids were learning subtle racism, or wouldn’t care. I could never post something like that, something that was so huge for me and my son, on the main boards because it’d be ripped apart in seconds by people who just don’t get it.

    It affects my parenting and my children as much as any other aspect of my life, and yet there’s a forum for every other aspect, just not this one. Because I’m tired of everytime I see a racial thread, it ending up with PWOC ganging up on the person until that person says sorry for ever having an opinion or an experience.

  25. Sarah says:

    How about a “cultural diversity” forum or something similar that would be open to all members? That would feel much less exclusionary to me and could be a place for people of different racial, ethnic, etc. backgrounds to share their life experiences and where those who wanted to learn about them could participate as well.

  26. naivete says:

    I’d be happy with that, I never meant people who were interested couldn’t take part, just that I was sick of seeing every thread where a POC tried to talk being jumped on and disrespected by a pack of people. If it were off the main boards, it’d probably lessen the instances of that happening.

  27. TL says:

    I don’t think the seperate forum for POC is appropriate for DS, there is racism and I actually was quite surprised how many people on the said threads were denying it. I am white, so I know I don’t even remotely know what real racism is like, but I don’t think having a forum for POC is going to help or solve any problems. I do agree that its quite different than having a mental health forum or ttc forum cause those are things that affect people of all races. That being said, I think those who were pretending that there isn’t racism need to pull their heads out of their asses. Further more, living in a neighborhood or city that is mainly POC (in my opinioin) does not give you a knowlege of the racism they face. anyway my point is that I think a seperate forum for POC would be bad for both sides. POC would not be exposing the racism they face and educating those who do not face it. And some of the PWOC would just continue on pretending that racism doesn’t exist or that it isn’t as bad as it actually is.

  28. lysol says:

    I think its funny that the thread was locked and handed over to Lee to decide. Think it’s going to happen?

  29. Angie says:

    Just have to say, some of us here may not have been the actual oppressors, but you can damn well guarantee the rest of us still feel the effects of it to the core. On a daily basis. Consider yourself lucky this isn’t something you don’t have to think about a lot.

    I could go either way on the subforum. If it were to happen, I’d like a support kind of thing. Talking about like-minded people about the every day stuff (just like the other subforums on DS, mind you). I’d hope the focus wouldn’t be to “educate.” Sure read, respond, whatever, but I would rather not “educate” people. Not my responsibility.

    In other news, I’d love the opportunity to hand people’s asses on a platter 😉

  30. I love the idea of a cultural diversity forum. I know it can be hard to verbalize what you’re trying to say when it comes to issues that may encompass race for fear of being labeled a racist or separatist, etc.

  31. Angie says:

    Oops, “Talking about like-minded people about the every day stuff (just like the other subforums on DS, mind you).”

    …not talking about, talking with, lol.

  32. subpariq says:

    #20 Why is having a subforum “special treatment”? Do you think alcoholics that have meeting with other alcholics are receiving some sort of special treatment that they should feel guilty about? I have a friend that is a single mom. She attends a single moms group where the women talk about the common issues they face as single moms. Do you think that is wrong?
    What you don’t seem to understand is that racism isn’t always a big overt display. It is often the subtle racism that slips by unnoticed by those of us it doesn’t affect. Maybe a POC doesn’t want to turn every instance of racism that she faces into an opportunity to educate the rest of us. Maybe, sometimes she needs to just commiserate with others that have BTDT. Maybe what she has to say/ask doesn’t have anything to do with racism. Maybe an African American has a question about caring for her daughter’s hair or a question about genetics and diseases specific to African Americans. Should she just post that in the sea of GM threads and watch it get buried without notice? Or maybe she should keep bumping it up and watch everyone bitch about bumping etiquette. Or maybe the rest of of can pull the priveledged poles out of our asses and acknowledge that a forum like this might be of benefit to some women so who the fuck cares if it is there?
    And if the PC crap pisses you off then oh well. I don’t understand why anyone would want to use language that would offend other people. I agree that one needs to look at intent but to say that the effort to be PC is annoying to you then you have some growing to do.

  33. lysol says:

    subpariq I think I’m in love with you.

    But srsly. A cultural awareness forum would be great. I want me some good healthy discussions about race relations. Without all the defensiveness that PWOC bring to all the “Off Topic” threads relating to race. And srsly, enough with the dread threads already.

  34. subpariq says:

    Did anyone see the request from the dad for there to be a daddy subforum? Where are all the police on that one? Is it okay to break by gender and lifestyle? I just want to get the rules straight.
    Also wtf did that cow bitch lock the thread? What is her fucking malfunction? Is she now doing anticipatory lockdowns on threads? She has to be the most clueless, powertripping, ignorant mod I have ever seen.
    I wonder what Lee would think of the forum? Anyone care to venture a guess based on his previous comments on LDS? Do you think he is an equal opportunity bigot or does he reserve his hatred for those he perceives to be non christians only?

  35. Yeah, it would be nice to have a more open dialog about the possibility of a Cultural Awareness or Cultural Differences subforum. But, we all know they read here anyway. lol

  36. toxins says:

    I am regularly subjected to racism. My inlaws are Native, and doesn’t like me because I’m white. Every little thing I do is because ‘white girls are like that.’ My family is ‘rich white opressors,’ and I am just another whitey stealing their men. My son isn’t allowed to be ‘half white’ in their opinion – he’s Native, and should ONLY be taught about his Native culture, because if not I’m trying to kill his heritage.

    [Sarcasm]
    Oh yeah, I really don’t understand racism at all and can’t POSSIBLY have an opinion about it.
    [/Sarcasm]

    Maybe we should have a forum for younger people who are searched for drugs, pulled over when driving in a nice neighbourhood, followed in stores, or assumed to be incompetant due to their age… and we should exclude anyone over 25 because they can’t POSSIBLY understand. I know I’m treated as though I were an idiot because of my age. Especially if I wear a hoodie – then I’m just treated like a thief.

    I dislike the assumption that white people don’t get discriminated against. When we DO complain about it, we get the types of comments that some people of other races complain about!

    Can’t we just all accept that there are some idiotic bigots in the world (of *all* races) and that we should fight their intolerance with acceptance and inclusion, instead of further dividing ourselves?

    [Besides, I have a feeling that a ‘POC Only’ forum would quickly dissolve into a ‘bash white people’ forum, since that’s what my visists to the In-laws do.]

  37. lysol says:

    toxins, I feel bad for your husband and children that you don’t get it.

  38. toxins, not all POC are out to “bash white people” even if you feel that way about your in laws. If your in laws are the only experience you have had with POC, you should get out more.

  39. naivete says:

    I suggest you might benefit from looking up the equation racism = prejudice + power. I feel bad that you are discriminated against, but it’s not the same as systemic racism.

  40. toxins says:

    I get out plenty, and live in a highly multicultural area. White people were the minority in my school, and the ethnic clubs many groups formed DID always turn into bash white people discussions. Every class debate turned into race vs. race. You can’t exclude *one* race from something without it turning into ‘why they aren’t allowed here’ discussions.

    I’ve been told by my husband’s friends to stay away from his rez, or I’ll get my ass kicked. My husband applied for rez housing and was told ‘no’ because he’s married to a white person. We were the only white people in an area we lived when I was younger, and my brother was beaten up *regularly* because of it. Police wouldn’t do anything, because it ‘can’t be because he’s white.’

    Racism towards white people does exist, and when anyone dares talk about it we just ‘don’t get it,’ ‘it can’t possibly be racism,’ or we ‘need to get out more.’ THOSE types of comments are what Naivete was talking about. Experiences being belitled, the complete derision of the situation, and bad treatment of the person calling it out. If I told a black person who had experienced that treatment to ‘get out more’ I’d be flamed so hard I’d need skin grafts.

    What I’m saying is that racism is discrimination based on race, and that goes for ALL races, not just people who aren’t white.

  41. naivete says:

    There’s a difference between racism and racial discrimination. What makes racism, racism is the systemic power behind it. Look in almost every aspect of government and law, who is it? Caucasian people. Society is white-powered and white-centric, so even if you’re in an area where the reverse is true, you’re in a country where it’s your people represented, your people in power, if you needed help chances are you’d be talking to one of your own people and if you were talking to someone in power chances are there would be no racism involved.

    Discrimination sucks, and it’s just as bad against discrimination against POC, but it’s not racism because it simply does not have the power behind it, it’s one, or more individuals, but it’s not fighting against an entire system. It’s the systemic power that makes racism.

    I’m not trying to demean your experiences, your experiences are very valid and do need to be addressed, it’s shitty that you’re being treated that way, the only reason I’m clarifying the above is because it’s not the same as racism. If you’re in an area where you’re the minority you can easily move to another area or another school or another x and be once again, in the majority. I can’t move anywhere but the rez, and the rez has no water because the government applied environmental racism and approved a plant directly upstream our water, so we’ve had contaminated water since 1996, and the police around the rez are picking up natives for no reason and beating them within an inch of their lives, (for real, it was on the news and there was the start of an inquiry but it died because really, people don’t care). You get what I’m saying? It sucks that a certain group of people don’t like you and express that with racial hatred, but it’s not the same as it always being like that. More people in this country would like you because you’re white, then hate you because you’re white, by a far majority, and more systems would be working with you rather then against you.

  42. naivete says:

    And just in case anyone out there is curious, PWOC isn’t used to imply that white people have no color or are “transparent” as some giggly yet so defensive girls may believe. It’s used because in every other aspect terms are white centred, and people believe that at the very least in racial discussions when racism is being talked about the centre of racial discussions should be POC. Racism is about POC, PWOC doesn’t imply that they’re less, or invisible, or colorless, it just puts the focus on racism on those who experience it most, instead of focused and centred, like society, on caucasian people.

  43. naivete says:

    “If I told a black person who had experienced that treatment to ‘get out more’ I’d be flamed so hard I’d need skin grafts.”

    and that’s the point, that’s exactly what’s happening on DS where POC make a post and PWOC sit and belittle it, and no, they’re not getting flamed, in fact it turns into a flame fest against the OP for ever even considering to talk about her experiences.

    I would never belittle someones experience as a white person with racial discrimination and it sucks to see it happen so often to POC, the conversation turns, once again, instead of focusing on the POC and her experience, into why it angers white folks to hear about it.

    (done posting for a bit, promise.)

    (And even though the onus of teaching this shouldn’t be on POC, I actually enjoy it, as long as it doesn’t turn into the omglawlz drama some people enjoy so much, and keeps being intellectual discussion as it has been so far.)

  44. subpariq says:

    Toxins. You’ve missed the ball. And that’s a shame given that you live in a mulitcultrual household. Nobody ever said that white people don’t face discrimination. But they don’t face it nearly as often as POC. And it isn’t reinforced by every institution affecting a white person’s life. It isn’t reinforced by language. Most white people don’t have a familial lineage where ancestors were raped, murdered, oppressed, held back, held down, stolen from, used, abused and left to hung out to dry over the course of hundreds of years. Do you think that the healing from that happens over night?
    As for the situation with your in laws. jesus. It doesn’t sound like you have even bothered to consider the plight of the native american at all! How the hell do you think your in laws came to feel the way they do? I feel sorry for your children if you can’t open your mind up enough to see the world for what it was and what it is. I don’t know what the fuck makes you think that all POC are interested in having an open season of bashing on white people because of your limited experience. That is a racial generalization and a really shitty one at that.
    Maybe your husbands friends want you to stay away because you are an ignorant bitch that is so selfish and caught up in her own privilege that she can’t see the forest through the trees. It may have nothing to do with ethnicity at all 🙂

  45. Sheila says:

    “naivete Says: May 29, 2008 at 4:18 pm
    I’d be happy with that, I never meant people who were interested couldn’t take part, just that I was sick of seeing every thread where a POC tried to talk being jumped on and disrespected by a pack of people. If it were off the main boards, it’d probably lessen the instances of that happening.”

    But that’s not what you said on DS, you said you wanted a forum where PWOC had to stay out.
    And where are all these threads you’re talking about where someone claims to bring up being a POC and get jumped on? I can’t say that I have ever seen that.

  46. Sheila says:

    I guess I just see this issue totally different from other people. Forums that focus on your color or race further separate the races.

  47. lysol says:

    “And where are all these threads you’re talking about where someone claims to bring up being a POC and get jumped on? I can’t say that I have ever seen that.”

    They usually get deleted or locked because the OP feels bad for the drama that ensues and asks the mods to get rid of the thread.

  48. Toxins, I stand by my statement. Not because you have said you’ve faced racial discrimination or that you have been mistreated for being white, but because you think POC have only one thing in common… the desire to bash PWOC. That is a pretty idiotic idea. And if you’re around a group of POC and all they do is bash white people, you should surround yourself with better people, rather than assume that all POC are like that.

  49. lysol says:

    “How the hell do you think your in laws came to feel the way they do? I feel sorry for your children if you can’t open your mind up enough to see the world for what it was and what it is. …
    Maybe your husbands friends want you to stay away because you are an ignorant bitch that is so selfish and caught up in her own privilege that she can’t see the forest through the trees. It may have nothing to do with ethnicity at all :-)”

    Srsly. Wikipedia “white privilege” and you can read to your heart’s content on what privileges you probably enjoy that POC do not.

  50. subpariq says:

    #46 acknowledging that there are different issues that affect different races is not separating the races. Assuming that we are all the same, that we all enjoy the same privilege, that we all have the same history, genetics, experiences, culture does divide the races. I don’t know why so many people are so eager to sweep race and ethnicity under the carpet like it doesn’t exist or like differences are something to be hidden (ahem white guilt) rather than celebrated (in some cases).

  51. naivete says:

    “But that’s not what you said on DS, you said you wanted a forum where PWOC had to stay out.
    And where are all these threads you’re talking about where someone claims to bring up being a POC and get jumped on? I can’t say that I have ever seen that.”

    Do you read the comments? I’ve already said that yes that was worded poorly because I was angry and just doing it fast, I didn’t mean they’d have to stay out, but that by separating it they’d be more likely to unless they were genuinely curious or allies. And these threads happen all the time, they’re either deleted or locked or buried. Within my first like, 2 days on the board, I was hit with someone wanting to use a sacred Navajo ceremony as a fun lil baby shower, and that was just in the first couple days. It’s all over the board, it’s just ignored.

  52. toxins says:

    “But they don’t face it nearly as often as POC. And it isn’t reinforced by every institution affecting a white person’s life. It isn’t reinforced by language. Most white people don’t have a familial lineage where ancestors were raped, murdered, oppressed, held back, held down, stolen from, used, abused and left to hung out to dry over the course of hundreds of years. Do you think that the healing from that happens over night?”

    Whether they face it often or not, it still hurts when it does happen, and is no less valid because of the colour of their skin. It is still discrimination, and according to the dictionary, is still racism.

    Yes, my ancestors experienced that and then some. Ever hear what the English did to the Scots? How about the Acadien expulsion? Do you know how Irish immigrants were treated in the US? (many of my ancestors came through there). Oppressed heritage is not limited to people of colour. I don’t think saying “I’ve been opressed longer than you, so your experience is invalid” is particularly helpful in trying to foster racial acceptance.

    The thing with my inlaws is that indeed, they are racist, and unrepentantly so. Just because they are Native doesn’t mean they can’t be racist. I got into a fight with my SIL (about giving my son a name that is traditional from my family) and she said, outright, “His Native history is more important than your side. White girls shouldn’t even be having babies with Native guys. Theives.” It doesn’t get plainer than that. I know what many Natives have gone through. My aunt was in a residential school, my MIL was as well. I’ve spoken, one on one, to people who were at Ipperwash when Dudley George was killed. A cousin I am very close to has lived on reserves her whole life. Don’t tell me that I don’t understand the plight of Natives. I have seen the situation on reserves (we wanted to live on one to help upgrade the homes bit by bit, as we are experienced in construction, but they didn’t want me.) I know why my MIL is angry at the government from when she was young, but I have JACK ALL to do with that. What the government did when she was a child should not reflect on me simply because I share their race. I think it was horrible and reprehensible, and I will teach my children that history and WHY that is unacceptable, but *I* didn’t do that, and do not deserve the ire for it.

    Treating ME poorly because of what bad people who happen to share my race did is no better than someone else treating someone badly because of what their ancestors were forced to do. There is NO REASON to treat someone badly because of their race. Any race. What is so hard about treating others as one wants to be treated?

    The reason I said that I believe a POC forum would dissolve into a ‘bash white people fest’ is because it is generally the most inflammatory people who end up overtaking such forums, not because all POC are that way. It was the same at my school – the people who were nice, accepting, and wanted nothing to do with that crap left those clubs, and the inflammatory, anti-white people took over. Kind of like [obviously not exactly like, but same concept] MDC and formula feeding – the whole thing turned into a “bash FFers” because it was BFers who make up nearly the entire population. Those who didn’t want to deal with that bashing crap, left. It’s nothing to dow ith POC or non-POC, but it appears to be a quite common pattern of things that when you exclude one group from a community, that excluded group is quite often bashed.

    And, in fact, the comment from my husband’s friend was “Stay away from [rez] if you don’t want to get your ass kicked. They don’t like white girls taking their men.”

    I’m hardly selfish, and most definitely not privileged (you have no idea what my upbringing was like. The only thing I’ve told you is that I’m white. Way to make assumptions there, woman). I will not, however, deny being a bitch. That’s a label I will wave proudly.

  53. naivete says:

    word. Colorblindness is a form of racism because by ignoring the fact that POC are treated differently and face systemic racism is to keep the system status quo and white centred. It’s a lovely belief, but it just doesn’t make sense with reality.

    And word about the reasons why native americans may feel the way they do, righteous anger. My family was beaten, raped, and torn away from their parents at the hands of a caucasian powered government and church, thrown into residential schools and had sewing needles shoved into their tongues, only to be put on a fraction of their land with energy companies constantly encroaching and white policemen constantly beating them up, I wouldn’t say my family hates white people because they surely don’t, but in general, they don’t trust them. And what they went through, as harsh as it is, is mild compared to what other people went through. If you went through that, wouldn’t you be angry? You’re angry enough as it is that they call you white girl. So don’t tell me that getting teased in school is on the same level.

  54. naivete says:

    And if you actually read up on white privilege instead of making ignorant assumptions as to what it means, you would know that it doesn’t mean you have a privileged life. Seriously, I don’t see why people enter into intellectual discussions with no clue as to what the terms they’re saying even mean. Google is yr best friend, babe, she’s not saying you have a fab life.

  55. lysol says:

    “I know what many Natives have gone through.”

    Fuck no you don’t, you ignorant piece of shit.

  56. subpariq says:

    Toxins. jesus. You seem pretty literate why can’t you seem to read that nobody is saying that white people don’t experience racism. NOBODY. What people are trying to tell you is that the racism that POC experience is institutionally reinforced. What about that don’t you understand?
    It DOES matter for how long a people are oppressed. How could it not? You can’t be serious with that statement. When generation after generation are denied rights, employment, education, and POWER, it takes at least that long to catch up. It matters in big way. It matters how long it lasted and how long ago it was. It matters how severe it was. The way my Irish American ancestors were treated does not begin to compare to the way that African Americans were treated. Nobody is saying your experience isn’t valid or hurtful. What is being said, is that your experience is not the same. And quite frankly, not as bad.
    Maybe you don’t, personally, have jack to do with why your mil is angry. But how can you blame her for her mistrust of white people? Your lack of understanding (and just about everything else that you’ve said) leads me to believe that you don’t understand the plight of Native Americans no matter how many people you know that live on reservations @@ I don’t have to think someone’s behavior is right in order to understand where it was born and sympathize with him for what has driven him to that point.
    When I’ve called you “privileged,” I’m not referring to your upbringing. I’m referring to white privilege. The fact that you haven’t the foggiest idea what that means, although, you’re married to a POC and have children of color is sad. You would really do yourself a favor by wikipediaing that like Lysol suggested.

  57. Birdie says:

    “All this PC crap really pisses me off. WE ARE ALL FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS.”

    Amen! PC is ruining the USA.

  58. subpariq says:

    “Amen! PC is ruining the USA.”

    Not hardly. Currently the Bush regime is ruining the US. Why is being PC a bad thing? I know that, generally, I don’t want to use language that hurts people. Recently, I used the word hermaphrodite. A friend, knew I wasn’t intentionally using offensive language and corrected me. I didn’t know it was offensive. I will never use it again. What is so hard or wrong or destructive about that? I don’t get it.

  59. lysol says:

    “Birdie Says: May 29, 2008 at 10:08 pm

    “All this PC crap really pisses me off. WE ARE ALL FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS.”

    Amen! PC is ruining the USA.”

    YEAH! Our 1st Amendment Rights to call people derogatory names is being challenged by all this PC garbage. It’s my god given right to make a joke about “what to tell a woman with two black eyes, NOTHING, she’s already been told twice!” AHHHAHAHA! because sexism and racism are hilarious, and so is offending people who are of different races or sexes!
    CAN I GET ANOTHER AMEN?

    Right.

  60. naivete says:

    I don’t understand anyways why on every single racial discussion so many white people feel the need to turn it always into what they face. Do you see rich folk jumping into thrifty threads to tell the poor people that they’re lives aren’t just peaches and cream just because they have money? It’s kind of weird.

  61. toxins says:

    Multiple people have said that what I’ve experienced can’t be racism, and that I should just get over it (in various forms throughout the thread.) I have not ever told anyone to ‘get over’ how they were treated. Nor did I say that the length one/one’s ancestors have been oppressed doesn’t matter (it does, especially when one is talking about people currently experiencing racial prejudice), I said it does not invalidate another person’s experience.

    I was not raised in a primarily white community, or nation for that matter. I have been in the minority for just over half of my life. I *do* understand racism because I *have* experienced it. The experiences I’ve listed here are just recent ones, in a coutry where people believe whites can’t experience racism.

    I know what white privilege means, and when I said you have no idea of my background, I meant specifically that I did not grow up where white people are the government, mostly. I’ve lived all over the world. There was no such thing as ‘white privilege’ in most places I have lived.

    I cannot accept my MIL hating *me* for what *others* did to her. I just do not think life should work that way. Anywhere, for any reason. I am perfectly understanding of the fact that she hates the government, because that is the entity that did it to her. But I think it is unacceptable to hate me, and say hurtful things to me, because of what they did.

    As to Lysol, I *know* what they experienced, because they have told me. They have explained to me in gory detail, because I asked, and I wanted to understand their experiences. I want to know and need to know, because we can only prevent horrors by learning why they were perpetrated in the past. Someone who has never been raped cannot understand rape, but they can know what it is. I should not have used the word “understand” because it is misdiction. I do not understand because I have not experienced *that*, but I can and do know.

    I have said my piece, and am backing out. Bash as you will.

  62. Me says:

    I could care less if they open their own forum or not. I am a white hispanic but I try not to let racism run my life.

  63. maree9304 says:

    I don’t understand anyways why on every single racial discussion so many white people feel the need to turn it always into what they face.

    Are you serious? You want a whole forum dedicated to what POC face!

    And maybe “so many white people” wouldn’t feel the need to express the discrimination that they’ve experienced if these comments weren’t said:

    “that other people may not be able to relate to and really should not be able to chime in on since they have never and will never experience it?”

  64. liljoeysmom says:

    “I don’t understand anyways why on every single racial discussion so many white people feel the need to turn it always into what they face.”

    Why can’t white people share their stories? Only other POC may share their experience? Why is another race less valid?

    FYI- The correct definition of racism
    rac·ism (rā’sĭz’əm)
    n.
    1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
    2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

    Power has nothing to do with the definition of racism.

    “Already you show me ignorance with the fact that you think exclusion is because there is no audience. ”

    My “ignorance” with TV, TV ratings and how and why TV shows are cancelled, picked up, moved around, etc. pays my bills. My favorite soap has quite a few minorities. Two shows I’m watching tonight the Office and Lost have quite a few minorities on them. I watching Top Chef right now and two of the judges are minorities not to mention several contestants. My kids watch Handy Manny, Dora the Explorer and Little Bill, all cartoons with minorities as lead characters. For you to say minorities are being casted only in supporting roles shows your ignorance.

    My comment about there being no audience was directed at the mention of BET and Spanish channels. The shows on those channels would not survive on network or cable TV is because there is no audience watching them. No audience=no advertisers paying for commercial time.

  65. subpariq says:

    Toxins. YOU DON’T GET IT. YOU DON’T GET IT. YOU DON’T GET IT.
    Sometimes I incorrectly use the word racism when I mean discrimination. As a white person, you do not experience institutionalize racism. You experience discrimination. If you’re living in this country, you experience white privilege as a white woman.
    Maybe your mil’s hatred towards you is painful. That’s understandable. But not to understand why she has distrust for you is not. If it were my mil, I would work really hard to acknowledge and sympathize with her history and try to build trust. As her dil, you have an opportunity to do that. Or you can wallow in your anger and hurt and complain about the discrimination that you have faced which is relatively nothing. It seems like you have chosen that later and that is a pity.

  66. subpariq says:

    #63 I think she clarified her statement on ds several times over. You do get that POC face common things OTHER THAN RACISM, right? Just like military families face common things other than deployment. Just like breastfeeding moms face common things other than nipple pain.

  67. subpariq says:

    #64 I don’t think that the discrimination whites face is any less valid it is just LESS in that it is never institutionalized. To me, jumping on a thread where an African American is venting about racism and saying I was discriminated against is almost like jumping on a thread where a cancer patient is venting and complaining about how she is feeling about a twinge in my elbow.
    Power has EVERYTHING to do with racism. I hesitate to use the word effective because that has positive implications. But I can’t think of the right word. Without power, the racist cannot be effective. Institutional power.
    And dictionary lookups are not the end all and be all in defining words as odd as that sounds. Typically dictionaries are out of date and don’t keep up with the evolution of language.

  68. La-dee-da says:

    #21 yes there are forums for babywearing, breastfeeding etc etc that you may or may not fit in. But this does not count as segregation. It is totally different when you start adding religion and race into forum groups. DS will be making a huge mistake if they allow this. If they have POC, it will have to be fair to make forums for all races.. and why not? Every race is important afterall. Why divide them up to begin with though? Why can’t people be people and post their valid concerns on off topic and if someone can relate, they post? We are all human beings regardless and I don’t think separation of races is going to help anything.

  69. maree9304 says:

    #63 I think she clarified her statement on ds several times over. You do get that POC face common things OTHER THAN RACISM, right? Just like military families face common things other than deployment. Just like breastfeeding moms face common things other than nipple pain.

    I do get that. I grew up in a poor town and after elementary school, we had to be bussed over to go to school in a town that was mainly white and upper-class. I was born and raised here in Texas but yet I was called wet-back to my face and behind my back. I ended up being homeschooled and then transferred to another school district. It was awful. I get it.

  70. lysol says:

    “If they have POC, it will have to be fair to make forums for all races..”

    Look at post #25. We’re not talking about this in circles anymore. We’re talking about a diversity subforum, or “cultural competence” subforum if you will.

  71. Sheila says:

    I can never understand how a seemingly normal person can actually call another mother a piece of shit. That’s disgusting. Lysol you have a crazy big chip.

  72. subpariq says:

    #68 You fail to demonstrate how having a forum for military families is any different than having one for POC. I think calling a forum segregation is an insult to those that were victims of segregation. Hopefully, you just don’t really understand what it means. “You’re African American, you must eat/drink/live/work/sit/sleep/attend school here” does not even compare to a voluntary forum where all people are free to post at will. The subforum makes the threads easy to find as they won’t get buried. People tht need help or support can get it from people who are able to offer it. What the fuck is the big deal about a support group? All the hubub makes it seem like people feel somehow threathened by POC uniting in support of one another. It is kind of freaking me out.

  73. lysol says:

    “Did anyone see the request from the dad for there to be a daddy subforum? Where are all the police on that one? Is it okay to break by gender and lifestyle? I just want to get the rules straight.
    Also wtf did that cow bitch lock the thread? What is her fucking malfunction? Is she now doing anticipatory lockdowns on threads? She has to be the most clueless, powertripping, ignorant mod I have ever seen.”

    I saw that thread. Yes, it’s okay for daddies to have their own subforum, but not POC or people who want to discuss issues they/their children face daily. I wonder what the trans gendered parents think about the daddy forum.

  74. lysol says:

    Damn. Where did my post go

  75. Sheila says:

    Assuming the mods don’t read this blog they only saw naievete say she doesn’t want whites to be able to participate. So yeah maybe that’s why it was locked.

  76. maree9304 says:

    That was weird. Some posts went missing for a while but now theyr’e back.

  77. lysol says:

    “I can never understand how a seemingly normal person can actually call another mother a piece of shit. That’s disgusting. Lysol you have a crazy big chip.”

    I took her comment the wrong way, and I apologize. I thought she meant she understands what Natives went/go through, in which I would argue. Someone who is white can know what Natives face(d), but can’t possibly understand because it did/does not happen to them. I mistook the word “know” with “understand” and I made a mistake. toxins corrected me, and I’m sorry.

  78. cassie says:

    so… i haven’t made it through all the posts yet… but this is such a slippery slope. i completely understand what naivite is saying. there are several subforums on DS that don’t have anything to do with anything a lot of people are doing, but no one freaks out and says “that’s segregation!!” when they create subforums like TTC, those who are currently pregnant or even going through menopause don’t flip out like “wtf? that’s not fair because i’m not ttc” people can still go in and comment, but usually those who are not ttc don’t surf that subforum, kwim? same with military families. those who aren’t in one or around one or don’t have questions about one aren’t oft seen chiming in. it’s majority military.

    i see what she’s saying… although i didn’t see the post that mistywhoever wrote… and she does have a nasty attitude often on DS and wouldn’t be surprised if it WAS her attitude and not her race that got her excluded… i understand what she’s saying. and i didn’t read it to be a forum where POC=black, and only black. i thought it to be any ethnicity where they experienced racial profiling.

    seriously. if someone posted on DS RIGHT NOW “what do i do? i just got evicted because my kids are biracial.” i honestly think there would be more skepticism about the grounds of eviction than actual HELP, which was what the OP was asking for, yk? i use this as an example because it happened to ME, when i was 7. so don’t anyone chime in like “oh that doesn’t happen” because yes the fuck it does. anyway.

    she didn’t mean that the american majority can’t come in and offer their 2cents or ask questions, it’s just that with a separate forum for sensitive handlings of racial proportions, people are less likely to barge in (ANY people, not just the majority) and be like “you’re being stupid, racism isn’t real.” tell that to the little girl who just got called a little n***** girl by someone she thought was a friend, JUST because the other girl was mad about a boy. again, personal experience.

    i think that until people learn to treat everyone equally, and until the stench of racism is eliminated for good, that there will be a need for a haven for those who experience it on the regular to go to seek support and advice from others who have been through it. it’s not segregation, we need support in this area too, why should we be forced to bring the subject before people who don’t take it seriously because either their heads are stuck in the ground about the reality of it’s continued presence, or they just can’t relate, as much as they try.

    like last week. i am a (mixed race) woman who was driving through a predominantly white city in southern missouri. i was driving 1 under the speed limit, in the right lane, in the center of my lane, following all traffic laws. i was followed for 20 minutes by a cop that i passed. he looked at me, did a double take and immediately flipped a bitch to follow me. my uncle (who is a cop… he’s 1/2 native, but he looks white), called me and asked if i had gotten pulled over. when i said no, and asked why, he said that the cop had ran my plates twice.

    again. i did nothing wrong. thankfully, i didn’t get pulled over (i think my uncle said something to him), but i had never felt more violated in my life. and i can’t help but wonder if it was because i wasn’t white. of course, i would LIKE to think it was just because i’m really hot, but let’s be real here.

    but where could i take that situation, which really bothers me, without having someone tell me i’m overreacting for thinking it was racially prompted? yk? i dunno. i guess what i’m trying to say is i understand what she’s talking about. and i think it’s a good idea. and that it shouldn’t be exclusive to ONLY those who are “ethnic” in some way (i always hated that term, lol), but could be an opt-in forum, so those who did participate would feel safe.

  79. liljoeysmom says:

    “again. i did nothing wrong. thankfully, i didn’t get pulled over (i think my uncle said something to him), but i had never felt more violated in my life. and i can’t help but wonder if it was because i wasn’t white. of course, i would LIKE to think it was just because i’m really hot, but let’s be real here.”

    My money is on the cop has a thing for hot mamas!

  80. naivete says:

    And actually I reworded it and explained what I meant in depth to Lee right after the post was locked with real life experiences of things I needed to talk about but had nowhere to currently, and it was ignored, because apparently, us POC can just go somewhere else.

  81. lysol says:

    Lee wouldn’t understand, HE is white and doesn’t have to or want to think about what POC families deal with. Daddies and Military families on the other hand, they can stick around DS in their own exclusive club without a fight.

  82. Madre says:

    Ignoring the ignorant statements…I would dig a POC or Cultural diversity forum. For some of the reasons listed above plus no POC I know is crunchy! It’d be nice to “meet” some moms who look & think like me. POC on DS are hard to spot, but I know they’re there.

  83. Sheila says:

    Well honestly some of you guys have compelling arguments. If there are things you face on a day to day basis that white people don’t then it might be a good idea.
    On diaperswappers, though, I don’t think it would work. Trying to keep PWOC out would not work, and allowing them access only if they were supportive likely would also not work.
    People on there can not keep their opinions to themselves a lot of the time. With forums like military and special needs and even dads, we have a certain amount of “sympathy” for them.
    Those who do not understand being a POC will not have the same amount of “sympathy” IYKWIM, and will feel strongly compelled to defend their position on certain topics.

  84. naivete says:

    It’s annoying, though. There aren’t many avenues to discuss things like that online, but you can talk to any POC and they’ll tell you it affects their life more then pretty much any other parenting aspect. I’m constantly on my toes having to monitor what my son is exposed to on television, in movies, with his toys. (I got him a kinder surprise once, which had a little plastic indian holding a scalpel, with a tipi, and the only other item in the set, was a monkey, holding an axe, with his own little hut. I mean, come on.) It’s so pervasive, and it’s everywhere, constantly in my face, constantly in my kids face, and it’s a struggle to get through it, but it’s even worse when you don’t have anywhere to go for advice, and don’t have that support network of people who understand and face similar things. If I posted half the things I want to that affect me and my children, I’d be jumped on in a second with a group of PWOC either telling me it’s not real or getting angry because apparently, if you mention one white person was racist, it means all white people are racist.

  85. Ashley says:

    Lee would only allow it if there was the ability to add more ads and generate more revenue.

  86. maree9304 says:

    I would dig a POC or Cultural diversity forum.

    I think a Cultural Diversity forum would be cool. I’d like to meet more Latina moms, especially ones who cloth diaper!

  87. cassie says:

    749 i totally lol’ed at that. that’s what i was hoping, but srsly. lol.

  88. cassie says:

    crap, #79, not 749. eesh

  89. naivete says:

    And who says POC aren’t crunchy? Come on girls, we’re the original babywearers, most baby carriers are inspired by another culture 🙂 I have a moss bag, which used to be used to fill with diaper moss, that was our cloth diaper, and then put on a cradle board, which was our babycarrier. What other culture has a cloth diaper and baby carrier all in one 😉

    (I however, do not fill my moss bag with moss)

  90. JeDeeLenae says:

    I always miss the good discussions. I’d love to see it. I talk to about 2-3 other POC on DS usually through PMs because of this.

    I’d love to have a subforum to talk about different issues. I don’t like bashing of any race/group, so if someone did start to turn it into a “bash white people” subforum, I would definitely put them in their place.

    I was once told that since I cloth diapered and breastfed I was “acting white.” Wasn’t really sure if that was Off Topic Discussion or not, but it would have been nice to know if any other POC had experienced something like that.

  91. Birdie says:

    lysol, in response to your #59. that isn’t what I meant at all. I should have been more clear. Of course I don’t think it’s ok for people to use derogatory names for other people/races/groups. My PC comment was more about how everybody is so worried about everything being fair all the time and it’s really doing the country a disservice. stuff like kids ALL get a trophy now, not just the winning team. PC has almost eliminated healthy competition, and that is a concern to me.
    I guess that doesn’t apply here since everyone is talking about racial issues. i had not read all of the other replies and didn’t know that most of the conversation was only about that. I just wanted to clear that up. i am not racist and I should have explained myself better.

  92. lysol says:

    “My PC comment was more about how everybody is so worried about everything being fair all the time and it’s really doing the country a disservice. stuff like kids ALL get a trophy now, not just the winning team. PC has almost eliminated healthy competition, and that is a concern to me.”

    And that is a valid concern to have. You seem like an open minded person in the other posts I’ve read from you, so I was hoping there was something else behind the statement. Thanks for elaborating 😀

  93. lysol says:

    “JeDeeLenae Says: May 30, 2008 at 4:34 am

    I was once told that since I cloth diapered and breastfed I was “acting white.” Wasn’t really sure if that was Off Topic Discussion or not, but it would have been nice to know if any other POC had experienced something like that.”

    Wow. I’d like to hear the reasoning behind why you were told that. Not really sure what to think about that one. Hugs.

  94. cassie says:

    holy cow cassie. no one has ever actually SAID that to me before. at least not to my face (errr, screen), and not yet… i wish i’d been around to see THAT statement (insert eyeroll here)

  95. JeDeeLenae says:

    For the record, it was not said by a white person. It was said by a POC. But, considering I was always told I talked white, dressed white, walked white, etc. it was just one more thing to add to the list of ignorant things POC have said to me.

  96. the mom says:

    I just dont see the point, but thats just me. And I dont think DS is the place for it.

  97. Megan says:

    I get annoyed when threads get locked like that. Like only a handful of people can give their opinions on the topic.
    I, personally, think a board for POC only would be segregation. I agree with what several people said, that all hell would break loose, and people would be screaming, “RACISM!” If some one suggested DS create a board for whites only (yeah, I have color. I’m freakin’ pastey white with freckles 😛 ).
    That being said, I am disgusted when people say that caucasians don’t feel discriminated against frequently. I personally could relate to much of what POC have to say, because my DH is a dark-skinned Italian, as is DD. He is often mistaken for Middle-Eastern, and since 9/11 we have dealt with A LOT of discrimination. That’s in addition to the crap we, as white Americans, deal with as well. I just cannot help but laugh at the ridiculous notion that white people do not deal with discrimination on a regular basis.
    Off-Topic is a perfectly fine place to post such issues, though I can guarantee that no matter if there’s a special board for such topics or not, 99% of threads will quickly get heated, then locked or deleted. Same old, same old. Such is the nature of DS. .:Insert eye-rolling emoticon:.

  98. Angie says:

    Are people even READING the thread before posting?!?

  99. JeDeeLenae says:

    I think people are reading some, but this is how it always is. It’s easy when you know there are so many people around you to think such a forum would just be (insert adjective here). You don’t have to ask if any other white people have experienced XYZ because (I’m guessing) about 80-90% of the board is white and many will respond. The same does not really hold true when you’re a POC. And guessing there’s 10-20% POC on the board is a generous amount, since I really have only noticed a handful.

  100. mamapajama says:

    i’d like to see a poc forum, too. i think it would be a great place for people to see that just because someone is a different color/race/culture we’re all just people. we might do somethings differently and have different beliefs and what not, but at the end of the day we’re all moms and dads who work hard to give the best to our kids. kwim?

  101. La-dee-da says:

    #72 – you are really asking the difference between a military forum and POC? You want to know the difference between professions and skin color?????? The difference between employment and race??? Why does there have to be groups based on skin color alone? I don’t like it. I’m half latino, and I’d rather not have a latino forum! I don’t want to be set aside based on my race. I want to converse with everyone, regardless of their race. I don’t get a shit if you are green with a blue polk-a-dotted ass! Call me a bitch, but that’s the way I think of it. If they start splitting up forums for all the different races (which they will have to do because I for one will not stand for just a POC forum without their being one for EVERY race to keep things fair) then you are going to have everyone posting on their own race board for support and therefore segregating. I don’t know, just my opinion though. DS last I check is predominantly a cloth diaper site, so I would have to suggest if one is in dire need of a race support group, perhaps they should check yahoo groups for that? I’m in a latino support group myself on yahoo. It helps when talking about traditions us beaners have. lol

  102. La-dee-da says:

    I just read all the comments. I could go for a cultural diversity forum. That would be fair enough and agreeable as long as they aren’t broken down into subforums with the individual races. And I do not think it should be restricted from white people. I’m half white/latino so how would I possibly fit if that was the case?

  103. subpariq says:

    Sometimes I wonder if people are deliberately misunderstanding. #101 how is a military families forum which supports military families any different than a forum which supports diversity? DS is more than a cloth diaper site. Any dingaling can see that. So why don’t we quit pretending it is just about diapers and that there aren’t a gazillion forums supporting many different types of familes.
    And jesus people. It is really offensive to call a forum which people can come and go as they please, that would be intended to celebrate diversity, bring people together, and support families segregation. It is offensive and insulting to call that segregation when we all know what segregation really means and that there are people that were really victimized by it. It is really pathetic, disgusting, and cowardly that anyone would even make that comparison.

  104. lysol says:

    Srsly. Are people even reading the previous posts?
    Now I’m thinking if we had a cultural diversity forum, it would need a sticky for education 101 on race related topics like livejournal has.

  105. La-dee-da says:

    Jesus subq, why don’t you just shut the fuck up already! You are acting fucking retarding and just want to prance around any logical point!

  106. La-dee-da says:

    retarding = retarded in case you could not figure out my typo.

  107. lysol says:

    La dee da, do you know what the difference between race and ethnicity is? Why would it need to be broken up by race to be fair anyway? That would be stupid. I’m betting more than half the people on the fucking board don’t even know what the difference between race and ethnicity is. For some stupid reason, people are thinking that “POC” excludes people who are bi-racial or multi-racial. Are people really that dumb?

  108. lysol says:

    FYI TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CHOOSING NOT TO READ PREVIOUS POSTS: We’ve gone over this a hundred times now, THE FORUM WOULD BE AN OPT-IN FORUM and IT WOULD NOT BE EXCLUSIVE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WHITE. READ: WHITE PEOPLE CAN JOIN TOO IF THEY SO WISH.

  109. Angie says:

    #101 “I want to converse with everyone, regardless of their race. I don’t get a shit if you are green with a blue polk-a-dotted ass!”

    I would actually be very concerned, if I were conversing with someone who was green with a blue polk-a-dotted ass!!

    :giggle:

  110. subpariq says:

    #105. You use the word “retarded” in a derogatory manner and you expect to have an ounce of credibility? I’m not prancing around logical points. Logical points have not been made by those that are opposed to a forum celebrating and supporting diversity. People, like you, that lack couth, use offensive terms like “retarded”, that don’t have a clue about American History, that don’t have a clue about the current status of race relations in our country should be the ones to “shut the fuck up.”

  111. subpariq says:

    Lysol with regard to your last question in #107. I don’t believe that most are dumb. I believe they are choosing ignorance because it is easier. Along with social awareness comes a lot of uncomfortableness.

  112. maree9304 says:

    –“I’m in a latino support group myself on yahoo. It helps when talking about traditions us beaners have. lol”

    I know you’re going to probably respond with “But I’m half latino” but srsly, that wasn’t funny.

    –“DS last I check is predominantly a cloth diaper site, so I would have to suggest if one is in dire need of a race support group, perhaps they should check yahoo groups for that?”

    DS is also a parenting community.

  113. La-dee-da says:

    #109 ok, i guess I would be a little concerned on that too. roflmao!
    That is all. Not commenting to the villiage idiots. 😉

  114. La-dee-da says:

    #112 sorry you do not think it is funny. You probably are not latino so you don’t get it, so what hell do you care? Tell my 100% latino dad to not call himself beaner and wetback on a regular basis. I think it’s funny, it is just words. it’s like calling whites wonder loaf, cracker and all that. I think that is funny too. If you cannot laugh at yourself, what a boring life. I love carlos mencia too, he says it like it is! Go Carlos! Lmao!

  115. maree9304 says:

    What an ASSumption! Read post #69.

  116. lysol says:

    Hah! Maree schooled La dee da on that one. Sweetness. 😀

  117. La-dee-da says:

    #115 very surprising. as if I would really know. not saying ur not. My whole family have always joked about our race, we have fun and it does not bother us. if someone else we did know was really trying to be mean by calling us wetback or whatever, it would be upsetting. but it is just diff when ur joking. You and your family never joke? I have a huge family and we constantly are joking. How is that any diff than black people calling each other the ‘n’ word? It is ok when they do it to each other, but they get upset if someone says it out of meaness. I feel the same about it.
    This has been fun. A place to go fling a little shit around.

  118. La-dee-da says:

    quit being an asshat lysol! lol

  119. lysol says:

    Asshat is my middle name 😉

  120. La-dee-da says:

    lol I think you might be alright afterall!

  121. naivete says:

    La Dee Da totally ruined the actual intelligent commentary that was going on, and brought in the LAWLZDRAMA I was talking about. I figured it was a matter of time before the ozmgcrew showed up.

    .. like, teehee.

  122. maree9304 says:

    And FTR, my dad is Mexican-American. He was born in Mexico, came here when he was 3, moved back when he was 14 or 15 for a few years when he started the process to become a citizen. He does not find ethnic slurs funny at all and that has nothing to do with laughing at yourself.

    You previously talked about not wanting to be set aside because of your “race” or in this case, ethnicity. But how is calling someone names BASED on their race/ethnicity NOT setting them aside?

    Honestly, I just say STOP, you’ve only made a fool of yourself.

  123. La-dee-da says:

    Maree – two words – PISS OFF. You don’t get it. In fact, i do not think you are latino at all because if you were, you would know what I’m saying.
    naivette – you are an idiot so you should piss off too! I for one am sick of your fucking whining. it’s old, get over it and move on. FUCK!

  124. cassie says:

    wow… la-dee-da, you came in here guns blazing, freaking out for no reason. you are making yourself out to be an absolute tool. how sad. you say you’re not in favor of an ethnic subforum yet you’re on a latino support group? it’s quite the double standard. since when does ethnicity not play a part in people’s parenting life? and when did ANYONE… ANY ONE PERSON EVER say that POC=BLACK. BLACK, AFRICAN AMERICAN, BLACK-BLIGGITY-BLACK-BLACK? because I, and i’m pretty sure everyone ELSE whose head isn’t shoved so far up their ass they can lick their own tonsils, can see that the subforum is for ANYONE of ANY ethnic background who has dealt with institutionalized racism, and OTHER stuff that the majority doesn’t go through as often as we (not saying they NEVER do, i’ve seen it happen, i’m just saying it’s not institutionalized and it’s not nearly as often, fortunately for them)…. and THAT (surprise surprise) includes latinos.

    geez. go away with your nonsensical aggressive pointeless antagonizing.

    /rant.

  125. subpariq says:

    la de da you are a a douchebag. Seriously. You throw offensive derogatory remarks around and expect people to laugh? Those remarks are offensive because of their origin and because they were used by people in power to hurt people not in power. There is nothing funny about them. If you can’t apologize for offending, you’re not just ignorant, you’re a total fucking asshole. The only people that are “in” on your stupid offensive jokes are other insensitive, ignorant, fucking assholes. And you want to have any say over what is and not acceptable as far as racial and ethnic subforums?

  126. maree9304 says:

    So if I call up my dad right now and call him a wet-back and laugh, does this mean I can have my Latina card back?

    You really are a fool.

  127. maree9304 says:

    Oh and my mom’s second language is English. She only knew Spanish till she was 7 or 8, should I call her a spic and then laugh so she can know I was just joking?

  128. naivete says:

    Lord, You’re such a dillhole. It’s kind of fun laughing at you, actually. Maybe you should rally the mods for an “I’m a stupid moron” forum where you can sit and LAWL at yrself and call yrself racist names all you want.

    I love it when people are so bloody unintelligent that all they can do is sit and swear and say stupid things that they think are funny. (But, really aren’t.)

    How bout leave the discussion to the grownups, mk?

  129. JeDeeLenae says:

    La-dee-da please stop assuming that AA people like the “n” word and none have a problem with it. And stop assuming that POC = AA because no one has said that either. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one that thought your “beaner” comment wasn’t funny.

    Why is it that whenever race or ethnicity is mentioned, people have to show their asses? Grow up.

  130. cassie says:

    word. the first time i was called the “n” word i was 6 years old. i have never thought it was cool to use derogatory racial words like that in any manner, joking or not. and i could use a plethora of them, probably a hell of a lot more than you could. but i don’t. you know why? because using those words shows a lack of vocabulary, and an abundance of ignorance, which, guess what, was where the “n” word was derived. buh-bye now.

  131. maree9304 says:

    the first time i was called the “n” word i was 6 years old.

    OMG that is awful!

  132. cassie says:

    yeah. it was by another little girl who i thought was my friend. i had to move, and she got mad at me, called me the n word and ran home. i was so confused. i was like “dude, just because i’m MOVING? wow.”

    yeah. i was logical even as a 6 year old, lol.

  133. naivete says:

    I had a similar experience, I was about 6 and playing in my backyard and a group of boys who were about 10 started circling me on their bikes yelling brownie. I ran home crying, and even though I didn’t know what racism was I knew what it was about. I remember asking my mama hopefully, “maybe they knew I was a brownie?” (The step before girl guides)

    It sucks how young it starts.

  134. sara says:

    Cultural diversity forum would be a good idea. I don’t know if ds would go for it..

  135. mom3divas says:

    I’m really confused. I did read the thread on DS shortly after it was posted. At 1st I was like WTH? because the OP did say something about not allowing “PWOC” in however I do believe she recanted that later.
    I agree with maybe having a Cultural diversity group that anyone can be apart of.
    I think excluding anyone would be a bad decision.

  136. Ashley says:

    I think having a general Cultural Diversity forum would be interesting. It could help bring topics to the foreground that can be discussed by EVERYONE. Not just people of one race or ethnicity while excluding those of another. Intelligent conversation (not including racial slurs at ALL, no matter who thinks it’s funny) would be a good thing.

  137. Madre says:

    I’m black, Native american, & Dominican. I’ve heard every racial slur there is. The words are meant to be offensive so why call myself oppressive words “b/c it’s funny”? La-dee-da, you’re a douche.

  138. Kelolsen says:

    😦 I’m so sad to read these stories of little girls being called horrible names. It brought to mind the poem “Incident” by Countee Cullen. Its short but so powerful.

    FWIW, I’m military and voted “no” for a military forum. I didn’t see a need for special treatment in a special forum and I never post in it.

    Ladeeda- your comments were horrid. those words aren’t funny. They are cruel and degrading. I”m sad that you find them funny.

  139. lysol says:

    Kelolsen, when was that poll for the military forum anyway? I don’t recall there being any polls for any of the other new forums. That seems odd.

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