Okay.. lets just hash it out here about circumcision & abortion issues (http://www.diaperswappers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=394029)

*Alabamamom* 04-13-2008 10:17 AM

Okay.. lets just hash it out here about circumcision & abortion issues
I am not going to continue replying on this subject in someone else’s thread that asked to no debates.. I made the mistake of replying to someone else, then apoligized for doing so and shut up.. But, since some are still so ready to jump up and down about it.. I figure, why not make a thread for this very reason.. We are all adults, surely we can lay it on the table diplomatically right? Oh.. and while I’m at it, I am adding a poll.. I am doing a study in my sociology class so this will be very helpful for me!
Obviously my stance on the whole circ issue is I feel it’s the parents choice to do what is best for their family.. it’s no ones business.. just like it’s no ones business if that same mother chose to formula feed or breast feed.. What I find interesting the most, is the same mama’s that argue that circing is ‘mutilation’ and you are taking somehow taking the childs rights away, are the same people that are prochoice.. I don’t understand how it’s ok to make the ‘choice’ of having your child sucked out in chunks from your womb, but NOT okay to have a little bit of skin removed in circing.. :headscratch: And yes, this IS a debate.. so lets go and hash it once and for all.. All that is asked, IS NO NAME CALLING AND TO HAVE RESPECT.. beat the subject up, not the poster.. :thumbsup: That said, I have errands and schoolwork to be done so it may be a while before I can check back..
Oooh, what fun!! Someone will be called a mutilator and a murderer all in one thread. <insert eye roll smiley here> I really must stay out of that thread.
Advertisements
Comments
  1. The Bored Bitch says:

    I think what I find amusing about that thread besides the fact it screams “FLAME THE HELL OUTTA ME” is this little gem.

    “And yes, this IS a debate.. so lets go and hash it once and for all..”

    As if the abortion and circ debate will finally be put to rest on DS because of this one thread.

    Forgive me for snickering over here in my corner. I can not help myself.

  2. theboardbitch says:

    I give that one an hour before they pull it… if that

  3. Real Diaper Talk says:

    Snickering with you.

    I mean who doesn’t know that ds is the place to settle all debates (rolls eyes)

  4. What a wanker says:

    Stupid post. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I, for once, hope a thread gets deleted.

  5. Kelolsen says:

    I love the “I won’t be back for a while to check”. Um.. .sure! go post a hugely inflammatory “bound to go many pages and turn into hell” post but don’t stick around!

  6. Ashley says:

    Idiot.

    Oh wait. She asked for no name calling. *roll eyes*

    Great post Alabamamom. Way to create community and bring people together. *thumbs up*

  7. Mark Lyndon says:

    Why should male circumcision be the parents’ choice? It’s the child’s body. There aren’t any other circumstances where we’d tolerate cutting healthy living tissue off a baby. That “little bit of skin” you’re talking about happens to be the most sensitive part of the male genitalia. If the kid wants to be circumcised later, that should be up to them. If you wait, it hurts less, it’s safer, and the results are cosmetically better. Adults never need a “revision” or repeat circumcision, and I’ve never heard of an adult dying or suffering an amputation due to circumcision in a western hospital, whereas such cases though very rare, do happen for babies.

    Abortion is way more complicated, but I don’t think it’s a paradox to be pro-choice on early-term abortion, but against circumcision of children.

  8. And, as usual, people are more than willing to just throw it all out there. I love how we should all be nice about stuff, until it comes to abortion and circumcision. Let’s throw in BFing as a human rights issue too, just to make things REALLY interesting. Even better, we can ask how you can be a true Christian/Catholic/etc and believe what you believe. And whether or not the death penalty should apply in these cases, too. We’ll have a nice little clusterfuck of hash then.

  9. sbolen says:

    sucked out in chunks from you womb
    hmmmmm…. i wonder what her stance is

    these are such stupid debates. No one on either side is going to change the other’s mind so just give up.

    Also, I don’t really get the connection between the two, I think she just wants to stir the pot.

  10. What a wanker says:

    “sucked out in chunks from you womb
    hmmmmm…. i wonder what her stance is

    these are such stupid debates. No one on either side is going to change the other’s mind so just give up.

    Also, I don’t really get the connection between the two, I think she just wants to stir the pot.”

    I could not agree with you more. That thread is a HUGE train wreck and 99% of that is becasue of her first post in the thread. I think nini02 said it best when she said

    “You chose your wording, and it was graphic wording. These are things to think about before you hit the post button.

    Also, since this is for a “study” for your class, shouldn’t you try to be neutral in your question?”

    Seriously, don’t most people doing studies remain neutral with those they are asking the questions of?

    Yes, I think she knew exactly what she was doing when she wrote that.

  11. sbolen and WAW, I agree with you both, 100%. Not only that but the wording is sure to invoke some really harsh feelings and thoughts for people that miscarried and had to have that done. She really set that thread up for disaster and I can’t believe she would do it in the name of research. Hashing it out is not research.

  12. Tara says:

    “If you wait, it hurts less, it’s safer, and the results are cosmetically better.”

    I can’t agree with this. I know two little boys ages 7 and 9 who had to be circumcised due to reoccurring infections. I can guarantee they would have had a lot less scarring both physical and emotional had it been done shortly after birth. They will always remember what was done to them, but my son, who had it done at 8 days old, doesn’t even know that anything was done to his genitals.

    I really wish ppl would just keep certain opinions to themselves. Not that I want to live in a communist country where nobody can talk about anything, but there are certain things that I think are off limits. People do not have any right to judge others especially if it’s pertaining to something that is done for spiritual reasons. Do what you want for your child, but what I do with mine is really nobody’s business.

  13. sbolen says:

    I agree Tara
    I mean, I can have meaningful debates about this with people that I am close with and trust. People that I know can say things to me that perfect strangers on the internet cannot. But I can’t have these debates with people from the internet that I don’t know. And strangers from ther internet aren’t going to change my mind, they are just going to make me mad.

    And if this is for research, I’m not sure if DS is exactly representative of the American population in general.

  14. onlygirl says:

    maybe the research is for how pissed off you can get people.

  15. Me says:

    I am 100% against abortion and against routine male circ. Both horrible practices.

  16. lysol says:

    “I am 100% against abortion and against routine male circ. Both horrible practices.”

    And who the f*ck cares?
    😀

  17. What a wanker says:

    ““I am 100% against abortion and against routine male circ. Both horrible practices.”

    And who the f*ck cares?”

    LOL! I think she may have missed the point-this post isn’t to debate the issues but to laugh at the lunacy of the OP for posting the thread and saying really stupid things in her opening thread! Duh!

  18. Mark Lyndon says:

    Tara, I stand by what I wrote.

    In the UK, less than 1 in 150 males is circumcised for medical reasons. You seem to be suggesting that the other 149 should be circumcised just in case. It’s highly unlikely that a European doctor would even have considered circumcising these other two boys, but US doctors seem to have a habit of finding reasons why it needs to be done when it’s really not necessary.

    “Do what you want for your child, but what I do with mine is really nobody’s business.”
    So that means you should be able to cut your child’s ear off? Or your daughter’s labia? Maybe for spiritual reasons?

    Even if circumcision was a good idea, doing it right after birth is the worst possible time since :
    a) you have to separate the foreskin from the glans (think of removing your thumbnails only more painful). This also results in adhesions, skin tags and skin bridges. If you wait a few years, then the foreskin separates naturally.
    b) it’s smaller so more chance of a seriously botched job (google “David Reimer” and read about his/her story if you don’t know what I’m talking about)
    c) you can’t use general anaesthetic on a newborn, so it hurts more. Watch a video of an operation if you don’t know how much it hurts. Just because babies don’t remember, it doesn’t mean it hasn’t affected them. They have more problems breastfeeding, and also show more reaction to injections years later.
    d) newborns don’t have much of an immune system, so they can die of things that are harmless to adults or older children. A baby died after circumcision in New York recently of the coldsore virus for instance, and another got brain damage.
    e) a newborn can’t tell you if he actually wants to have the most sensitive part of his penis removed or not. It’s HIS body after all.

    Neonatal circumcision is actually *banned* in public hospitals in Australia, in all states except one. The children’s commissioner in Tasmania wants to ban it there altogether.

    If my son wants to be circumcised when he’s 18, I’ll pay for it, and help him find the best surgeon. Until then, he stays intact. His body – his decision.

  19. Me says:

    “I am 100% against abortion and against routine male circ. Both horrible practices.”

    “And who the f*ck cares?”

    I do and that’s enough for me lol

  20. DS Drama Mama 2 says:

    Hi Mark 🙂

    This wasn’t really a post that we posted to have debated. We are making fun of the debate on the website mentioned in the OP.

    Many of the readers will agree, many will disagree with your POV.

    But again, we are making fun of the DRAMA on DiaperSwappers.

    You are welcome to tell us your POV, but we would rather not debate the issue here.

    ~DSDM2, one of the blog owners.

  21. sbolen says:

    Me and Mark
    Log on to Diaperswappers if you wanna fight. We’re just here for the jokes.

  22. Me says:

    I don’t want to fight, I was joking just like all of you, didn’t you notice my lol. I am on ds but thanks for the invite.

  23. sbolen says:

    Ha! Missed the LOL!
    Damn I wish this blog had smileys!!!

  24. It does sbolen… but just the 🙂 😦 😉 kinds.

  25. lilgamoma says:

    yeah, I agree, that type of “debate” will never be settled. But I do think all that IS the parents decision. I don’t understand why so many get so angry about it though cause it’s not really effecting THIER lives..idk (yawns) LMFAO about the “no name calling & have respect”…oops, I fell outta my chair from laughing’….

  26. giggle says:

    “If you wait, it hurts less, it’s safer, and the results are cosmetically better.”

    I have to agree with Tara on this, my eldest required a circ for med. reasons when he was older….. He had to have 3, yes count them, 3 Circs! Why? The first time the scar tissue fused to the main body, the second time he bled profusely afterwards so they had to come back to finish 😦

    My others have not been circ’d but I don’t agree nor disagree with circ’ing. I think that has to do with preference myself.

    Now, are they talking partial circ’s or full circ’s in the thread? Because a partial circ doesn’t remove all that much of that sensitive skin….. of course that would be a debate inside of a debate LOL

  27. Tara says:

    I promise after I say this I will stop. I know this isn’t meant for a debate.

    “You seem to be suggesting that the other 149 should be circumcised just in case.”

    Actually I am not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting that everyone decide what is best for them and THEIR children on an individual basis. I feel the same with vaccinations, while we do not vaccinate I would never judge anyone for vaccinating. It is your decision for your child. What I am suggesting is that the broad statement you made that circumcision is less painful as an adult or child is not true. A baby does not remember pain but a child and adult does. Therefore it can leave psychological scarring if done past the age when children start forming memories.

    Secondly not taking into mind my spiritual beliefs, you are wanting me to question my god who I believe created the universe and human beings and who has instructed us to circumcise our male children at 8 days old, which has been medically proven to be the day which the infant’s blood clots on it’s own. I tend to take the side of the creator of the invention rather the engineers who study and work on the invention. I do not believe he would have instructed us to do something that would be harmful to ourselves, rather I believe he knows more about the way our bodies work than we can even fathom.

    “newborns don’t have much of an immune system, so they can die of things that are harmless to adults or older children.”

    This is why we breastfeed our babies. Immunity is given to the infant through mother’s milk. Waiting until the 8th day to circumcise is also a way of letting the child’s body develop the immunity given.

    Last but not least due to my faith I do not believe a child is his/her own until they have left their mother and father and cleaved to their husband or wife. Until that time I am instructed to raise my child up in the way he/she should go and that is precisely what I will do.

    If I did not have the understanding I do about my faith then I probably would not circumcise either, but because of that understanding I do believe there are benefits to it that we have yet to discover. You may not agree and that is perfectly fine, I’m not here to judge you or your decisions, nor should you anyone else’s.

  28. Mark Lyndon says:

    OK, last one from me for Tara:
    8 days is *not* long enough for a baby’s immunity to develop (even a full-term baby). It was a Jewish baby circumcised on the 8th day, that died of the coldsore virus, and another Jewish baby that got brain damage.

    You mention breastfeeding, but circumcision has been shown to be a big problem for breastfeeding. Just google it, or look at what the AAP says:
    “Available research indicates that newborn circumcisions are a significant source of pain during the procedure and are associated with irritability and feeding disturbances during the days afterward.”
    http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b108/3/793

    Not all Jews believe in circumcision. These websites are all run by Jews who are opposed to circumcision:
    http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/
    http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/
    http://www.circumcision.org/

    Google “Brit Shalom” to find out about an alternative Jewish naming ceremony, which doesn’t involve cutting.

  29. Green~Mammy says:

    Lysol rawk on! People need to worry about their own choices for their own bodies and their own kids peni and quit worrying about what the family down the block my be doing as far as circing and abortion is concerned. If you are against choice then don’t choose to have an abortion if you are anti-circ great don’t circ your sons. Stop worrying about my children’s peni though please and thank you.

  30. anonymom says:

    Mark,

    Unless you are Jewish yourself I suggest you keep quiet about whether or not a Jew should circumcise his or her son.

    While it is true that some Jews do not circumcise and have a brit shalom instead, this is not accepted by most of the Jewish community as fulfilling the mitzvah of circumcision.

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/12-Kids/section-3.html

    In the end it is between the parents of the boy and their G-d and no one else should feel that they have the right to be involved in that decision.

  31. onlygirl says:

    how did this turn into a religous debate??

  32. Stacey0402 says:

    so sorry I missed that little gem. Deleted!

  33. The Original Just Me says:

    I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that people are so concerned about my sons penis. As a mother of a boy, when deciding to have him circ’ed I weighed all options and possibilities. As a mother of a boy, I chose what I believed to be best for my son. And as a mother of a boy I could not care less what people think of my choices.

    We had family members who were not circ’ed until adulthood literally *BEG* us to circ our child as a newborn due to their traumatizing and difficult experiences with not being circ’ed and having to do it in adulthood.

    Oh, and my son bf like a CHAMP from day ONE up until he weaned himself at well over a year old.

    The thought of my son being in pain killed me, but I knew it was for the best. When you conceive my son, carry him and birth him then you can decide what I should and shouldn’t do with his penis.

    *All yous are said in a general sense*

  34. Me says:

    Not meant for anyone in particular, just using as an example.

    “Oh, and my son bf like a CHAMP from day ONE up until he weaned himself at well over a year old.”

    My father smokes since he was 12 and he doesn’t have lung cancer, he is very healthy.

    My mother is obese and doesn’t have diabetes.

    Those type of examples don’t make sense because you really won’t know how a child will react to a circ. until it is done. You can have the baby that bf perfectly or you can have the one that won’t at all.

    And on the subject of religion, I am not jewish but if I was I still wouldn’t circ. I have a similar problem w/ my religion because I not fathom to put my dh before my children. So even though my religion says to, I won’t.

    Man, we have our own little debate forum here lol

  35. Ron Low says:

    Whether you want a debate or not, you’re here laughing it up and somebody needs to tell you that it’s HIS body and morally it’s HIS decision. 95% of the non-Muslim world does not circumcise. Not one national medical association on earth (not even Israel’s) recommends routine circumcision.

    Stop pretending it’s no big deal. You’re talking about amputating over half the pleasure-receptive nerve endings from a healthy non-consenting person. If circumcision had never been heard of and some cult came along and said we’re going to cut baby genitals, the unanimous cry would go out: THAT’S SICK, HANG ‘EM. Their “freedom of religion” would mean absolutely nothing to you. Admit it.

  36. onlygirl says:

    shut up rob, someone circed you didnt they. parents have the right to make decisions for their kids and you dont have to agree but religion has very little to do with most circs. It is a decision made by each parent. jews that dont agree that jesus is messiah circ, and have for centuries. many people circ because its the way they are raised. it has nothing t do with a cult or bieng non muslum. so take your morality and shove it up your ass, i decide my boys fate until they are 18 so piss off.

  37. Green~Mammy says:

    Me ,
    If you were raised in Judaism most likely your views would be completely different on the subject of infant circing. ESPECIALLY if you were raised in a Orthodox home and were a practicing Jewish person. OS saying you KNOW how you would behave makes about as much sense as any of these examples

    “Oh, and my son bf like a CHAMP from day ONE up until he weaned himself at well over a year old.

    My father smokes since he was 12 and he doesn’t have lung cancer, he is very healthy.

    My mother is obese and doesn’t have diabetes.”

    which you gave now doesn’t it. You do not KNOW how you would choose to act if you WERE Jewish because you ARE NOT. It is just that simple.

  38. The Original Just Me says:

    onlygirl Says: April 15, 2008 at 2:27 am

    i decide my boys fate until they are 18 so piss off.
    ————————————-

    Green~Mammy Says: April 15, 2008 at 5:18 am

    which you gave now doesn’t it. You do not KNOW how you would choose to act if you WERE Jewish because you ARE NOT. It is just that simple.
    ————————————-

    ITA with BOTH of you.

    I will do what I feel is best for my son. Plain and simple. I highly doubt that he will hate me for circ’ing him when he’s older.

  39. Mark Lyndon says:

    1) You decide a lot for daughters too before they’re 18, but that doesn’t give you the right to have parts of their genitals cut off.

    2) The people behind the three (yes three) websites I posted are all Jewish. Why not talk to them?

    3) Women that circumcise their daughters also blog about it, and we get the exact same reactions from them too. Actually, they’re not as rude as onlygirl, but they do tell us that it’s nothing to do with us, and we don’t know what we’re talking about, and that it’s their right to have parts of their daughter’s genitals cut off. Some people feel it’s their religious right or even duty. I feel very strongly that the child’s right not to have living tissue cut off their genitals overrides that.

  40. Tara says:

    “The people behind the three (yes three) websites I posted are all Jewish. Why not talk to them?”

    Mark it’s not that I don’t agree with you that some Jewish ppl do not circumcise, it’s that I’m not going to jump off of a cliff just because a few of my fellow comrades think it’s the thing to do. People have to do and follow what they believe is true and right, and personally I do not believe the ppl who are behind those sites are truly living up to their faith. The instructions are very clear, you can try and twist them, water them down, but the fact of the matter is the truth still remains. I don’t follow other ppl of my faith, I follow my God.

    The same thing happens with other faiths, you see in Christianity the ten commandments and directions about lying, stealing, etc, but ppl still do those things and then turn around and call themselves a Christian. It doesn’t make it right.

    I tend to not follow the crowd on things, I have my own brain, my own beliefs, and my own standards, and honestly I could care less if the highest religious figure in the world said it’s no longer necessary, it’s not going to change the instructions that were given thousands of years ago, sorry.

  41. Jezebel says:

    I find it interesting that the anonimity of the internet allows us to discuss our children’s genitalia in a way which most would not do face to face. Can you imagine sitting with an older son or spouse as you discussed his penis with strangers?

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s